POLL: What Are Your Thoughts on Fast and Furious?

reg June 22, 2012 at 12:29 pm

The obvious difference, Shawn, is that Media Matters cites its findings with factual support that prove its findings. World Nut Daily, however, just cranks out conspiracy fearies with no foundation.

Sami June 22, 2012 at 12:36 pm

The major networks are not reporting on this at all or maybe a nod. I saw on MSNBC where they said Fox News was making up F&F....what??? Maybe the "Dr" wouldn't have to quote Fox news if they did report on it. To me, more proof of a cover up of some-sort. Myself, I like to listen to both side of the story as it is being reported and draw my own conclusions and/or decide who's lying the best, you know, like in politics. (The best liar always win's) So for now we have to rely on Fox News.

Connie Carnahan June 22, 2012 at 01:23 pm

Craig, I feel you. President Obama invoked the Executive Privilege. In my humble opinion anyone in their right mind should have known passing these guns over the border to Mexico so the Drug Cartel folks with these guns could be tracked and killed and God only knows what else, should have his butt in a sling. Some people are saying Holder did provide the documents requested. That is not the report I read. He dragged his feet for many months and kind of parceled them out in dribbles, and still Congress does not have ALL the documents it requested.
Just for fun I went to my Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English interested in how they defined "Privilege." There were (5) definitions. Number 3 states: A situation in which people who are rich or of a high social class have many more advantages than other people: "Wealth and Privilege." We know Doctors and Lawyers have this privilege and it is to protect the Client and the Patients. I really think when Obama scolded the Supreme Court and more or less threatened the Supreme Court Justices over passing the Affordable Care Act, and to my delight The Supreme Court kind of slapped him. The problem is the Supreme Court rules on the Constitutionality of the Issue before them. Obviously, Obama doesn't care much for our Constitution, and I believe Congress had enough drama and began the Contempt of Congress accordingly. I will believe the "contempt" charge won't be heard in my life time.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 02:07 pm

The two or three instances that anything like this was used in 2006 under the Bush administration was isolated and then abandoned. The media is spinning this now to make it look as though Bush started this operation, and/or had something to do with F&F which originated with the barry soetoro and holder. No caps on purpose. Still trying to blame Bush, What a bunch of corrupt cowards.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 02:09 pm

I read this comment on Rep Scotts facebook page.
"For what it's worth, I'd like to chip in my opinion. I think Fast and Furious was a disaster. But it was an attempt at a creative way to catch bad guys. Punishing these people for their failure is a sure way to make sure that the managers in the government shy away from any new, innovative ideas. It's horrible that Fast and Furious put guns in the hands of murderers, but pounding on it the way we Republicans are is NOT helping our country." I sure do enjoy it when people use reason and factual data to back their claims or opinions. More people should give it a try.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 02:11 pm

Sweet logic there Sami, when did you stop beating your kids?

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 02:13 pm

Was conspiracy fearies a Freudian slip or was that the term you meant to use.
Just curious. Pretty funny either way.

stanley seigler June 22, 2012 at 02:21 pm

if issa-GOP want the facts re FF just google...read a nonpartisan account...there is no conspiracy...at worst it was a sting operation that didn't work...
very sad an agent or anyone was killed...but guns are available with or w/o FF...the cartels had guns before FF and dont think canceling FF disarmed he cartels... amazing how party politics make 'mountains of mole hills'...seems passing legislation to create jobs makes more sense. FYI possible issa motivation. from the atlantic: 'Even before he took over the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, with zero evidence in hand, Issa called Obama "one of the most corrupt presidents in modern times." In his relentless search for evidence (and headlines) since, he has found nothing to back up that statement, making him look like a buffoon. (Even the Solyndra scandal turned out to be a question of incompetence, not corruption, as Issa himself has admitted.)' http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/06/darrell-issa-and-house-republicans-permanent-witch-hunt/258847/ opine: originators of FF and wide reciever werent too bright...cute names tho.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 02:23 pm

Only a blind person would believe that the motive behind F&F was to support more gun restrictions and eventual gun confiscation. A man without a gun or at least the right to keep and bear one, is a slave. Trying to "catch bad guys" is simply the cover story for a covert action designed to undermine our 2nd Amendment rights. Look at every other nation in recorded history, then make a new decision based on new information. The most popular example in recent history is Hitler's Germany. he wanted to ban guns to "Protect the Fatherland". When the gun were confiscated, genocide began. The job was made easier by rendering the people defenseless. The same plans are being carried out ever so gradually in our country! Wake Up Americans! Prosecute soetoro and holder to the fullest extent of the law. Short of that, we are facing a revolution, or another genocide.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 02:37 pm

True, guns are "available" without F&F, but NOT the fully automatic weapons that the Cartels are using to wreak havoc. Our country sells very few full auto weapons and the collectors who can buy them have to jump through many hoops and wait months for the ATF to do throrough background check and issue a stamp. Even then it is only legal to buy a full auto (machine gun) made 1986 or earlier. No, the weapons that the Cartels are causing the real problems with are mainly coming from the South American areas, from guerilla bands and revolutionary squads who seel them on the black market very cheaply. Our government, including holder and soetor know this to be true. So the only way to make it look like America is supplying the Cartels is to set it up with this corrupt and covert action. This was NOT a sting gone wrong. This was exposed by a whistleblower from within the ATF!!!! Readin is fundamental

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 02:41 pm

So your theory is that the US gov't is trying to undermine the 2nd amendment by putting more guns into circulation?
Another genocide huh? Hysterical hyperbole has a common source.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 02:54 pm

Another public school student? This is not just my "theory". There are millions who take this as simple fact. Recorded history is clear, and there for the reading. It is today's media that is misleading. Today's media is telling you to go back to sleep, it is all just crazy conspiracy talk. That's how they are able to fool so many. Our media is privately owned and they are told what to "report". The masses innocently believe whatever they are told on the TV, and they believe like hypnotized zombies whatever they hear on TV and the "news". But many are waking up to the truth that is rarely put out in the mainstream media. They tell you how to think. I used to be the same as you and others. No more. Some may call me a conspiracy theorist, but most great minds and patriots in our country's history were accused of the same. By today's standards, our Founding Fathers would be considered homegrown terrorists. Keep your head in the sand if you like, but if you are brave, open minded, and care for your family, then practice your research skills. See where your search takes you. Don't just accept what the "News" spoon feeds you. Think for yourself! Then make up your own mind. Don't take my word for it, but PLEASE don't believe what you hear on CNN or FOX. They are all privately owned by the same rich people who would be your owners as well if allowed.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 03:01 pm

So now you're saying that the US government is TRYING to make it look like they are supplying the drug cartels with automatic weapons even though most of them are coming from South American guerrillas?
Writing is also fundamental.

Jonathan Allen (Editor) June 22, 2012 at 03:14 pm

Wade, I think you missed a word in your first sentence there because it contradicts the rest of your post, and all the ones before that, and even though Obama hasn't said anything about or pushed for any additional gun control measures since taking office - in fact under his administration gun laws have even been relaxed, for example you can now carry loaded weapons in National Parks - you're still entitled to believe whatever Limbaugh fueled conspiracy theories you like. There are a couple of points I think you should consider however: 1) The U.S. military and federal law enforcement agencies are highly trained, and well-armed, in large part they are the best of the best. 2) As you point out in another comment very few American citizens are permitted to purchase and own firearms that come anywhere close to matching what the U.S. military use in terms of fully automatic small arms (forget about the missiles, smart bombs, helicopter gunships, etc., etc. for the moment), mostly what the average citizen has access to are semi-automatic handguns and rifles.
I point this out only to suggest that if our government really wanted to round up and murder us they already have more than enough resources to do so, and the limited defense the average citizen can put up really wouldn't matter in the long run regardless of whether he/she is armed with a 9mm or a pointed stick.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 03:20 pm

Yes! If the ATF could have gotten away with F&F, they would've then sat back as the stories of "American" guns involved in Cartel Killings" stories aired. These stories would have served as the propaganda needed to sway peoples' opinions, and therefore weakened their resolve to stand against attacks on our 2nd Amendment rights, as well as new gun restrictions and more gun laws that adversely affect the law abiding gun owners and NOT the criminals use of guns. Criminals care nothing about laws. Make as many as you want, and the criminals will continue to get guns at will. Just like they do drugs. This was all about creating a scandal to support a move toward undermining our 2nd Amendment rights. And it didn't matter to soetoro and holder that lives would be lost to accomplish that end. These men are not only corrupt, but cowardly murderers as well. I won't waste any more time trying to convince someone who already knows everything, Such a person is unable to learn anything else. But I do hope that some who were innocently unaware, came to a new understanding through new information and are moved to make a positive difference in the future of our country.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 03:26 pm

I was going to reply that yes, you are a conspiracy theorist. But then I read the part where if I cared about my family that I have to be like you. I DO care about my family. Then I read how you compared yourself to the great minds and patriots of OUR country, and who could argue with that? So you've convinced me, I AM going to do research on websites that aren't mainstream, because there is NO DOUBT that they can't possibly have an agenda! I heard on Fox just today that there is a 20% chance of rain. Screw you Fox, I'm washing my car! FIGHT THE POWWWWAAAAHHHH!
Did you get that that was sarcasm? The "sources" you're getting your "research" from that enables you to make your own decisions are at least as likely to have an agenda, and less likely to have access to information. FWIW, I share your concern of corruption in the media and the government. I just don't think they care if we have guns as they will ALWAYS have bigger guns. And the money men aren't really all that interested in control beyond generating (and keeping) increased profits. The NWO/Illuminati conspiracy you are promoting (or paralleling) is a fantasy. Vote for tax and lobby reform and publicly funded elections, vote against corporate personhood. Make the government about people and not profits.

David Brenchley June 22, 2012 at 03:52 pm

IMHO ... Holder and Obama were caught unaware of F&F.
None the less Holder is the responsible party to apply discipline for its failure and the death of Officer Terry. Something he has failed yet to do, but the investigation is on going. He has misrepresented the facts before Congress. I believe Executive privilege was invoked to hide discourse between the White House and Justice, something Holder has testified before Congress has not occurred. His deceit and mismanagement raises questions as to his suitability to head up DOJ.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 04:25 pm

Here's a good video that tells the story of Operation Fast & Furious - the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms & Explosives' deliberate gun running to Mexican drug cartels. The only reasonable explanation for this policy is that the administration sought to create a problem with US gun sales and Mexican drug trafficking violence to justify significant restrictions on gun rights for US citizens. If you've been following this story as it developed over the last couple of years but have been frustrated by the intentional lack of hard evidence because of administrative stonewalling, this video puts it all into perspective with a historical timeline. It's also interesting to see how this horribly botched operation is becoming president Obama's version of Watergate.
http://youtu.be/kD-2KxJbsx8

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 04:47 pm

You may want to check the definitions of a few words. "Only" and "reasonable." You don't seem to know what those words actually mean.

Wade June 22, 2012 at 05:01 pm

Did you even watch the video? The video is a bit long, but current as it was posted yesterday. And by the way, our own Congressman from SC is seen and heard kicking tail at around the 15 minute mark. And Josch, all I would ask of you is, Who are you trying to defend? Do you want the truth, or just to protect holder and obama from and bad press? Two Americans lost their lives protecting me and you because of this debacle, along with untold hundreds of Mexican citizens. And the killing will go on for years to come with guns that our government, not our people, put into the hands of those drug Cartels! How would you feel if the murdered men were your brothers?

Wade June 22, 2012 at 05:18 pm

Correction. Should have read "wouldn't" in the first line of course.
And Jonathan, the armed citizens outnumber the armies hundreds of thousands to one, and many of our military are "oath keepers" who are pledge to disobey any unconstitutional order to fire upon the citizenry. So with bombs or without, if the population was organized, it wouldn't even be close!

Jonathan Allen (Editor) June 22, 2012 at 05:46 pm

"Oath Keepers" or not I would expect the vast majority of our military to refuse to follow orders to fire on or kill innocent U.S. citizens, so I'm not particularly concerned about the revolution or genocide you predict, but perhaps it is naive of me to give them the benefit of the doubt. However I wonder what makes the "Oath Keepers" oaths any more reliable than the oaths that both Obama and Holder swore to uphold and defend the Constitution? Or the oath that every member of the military who is not a "Oath Keeper" swears to uphold and defend the Constitution.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 05:46 pm

It's not who I am defending, but what. You're willfully promoting unsubstantiated theories using fallacy. You're a liar. And because your video was posted on the internet yesterday doesn't make it "current" and it certainly doesn't make it right. There was nothing in that video that proved anything. It is in parts spun effectively but it is edited poorly and clearly biased.
FWIW, which is nothing to you because I'm not a wholesale kook, I believe that to some degree the president knew about the program and Holder certainly did. I believe that the program was at best "high risk/high reward" and it certainly was flawed. But I also believe that the intention of the program was to track weapons from AZ gun shops to the drug cartels. Because it did. A similar tactic is used with drugs. Hell, the exact tactic was used for Operation Wide Receiver. It just wasn't botched. The purpose wasn't to undermine the constitution or to get agents killed. Your implication is that the men that killed those border agents wouldn't have had guns if it weren't for Obama and Holder. They would have. Just like any guns left over from Operation Wide Receiver aren't accountable to president Bush. Adding a couple thousand guns to the Mexican border is like pouring a cup of water in a bathtub. I wouldn't be very objective if the murdered men were my brothers now, would I?

stanley seigler June 22, 2012 at 05:46 pm

@wade: "...NOT the fully automatic weapons that the Cartels are using to wreak havoc...the weapons that the Cartels are causing the real problems with are mainly coming from the South American areas..."
re: 'Readin is fundamental'...and one would think logical conclusions gained from readin is as well...not sure of the logic in mixing FF, gun control in USA, and south america supplying the cartels. opine: the three are separate issues... re: 'a sting gone wrong'...the sting gone wrong is what was exposed by a whistle blower... the only cover up (FF exiatence) was exposed by the whistle blower...then holder, etal, admitted the FF operation involvement...what's new...and what did the w.blower accomplish... re: 'So the only way to make it look like America is supplying the Cartels is to set it up with this corrupt and covert action.' so the purpose of FF and W's wide receiver was to make it look like USA supplied the cartels...really...and BO is a muslim communist. re: 'but NOT the fully automatic weapons'...with money cartels have they could buy fully automatic weapons from anywhere...probably surface to air missiles too. oh/and re: '...we are facing a revolution, or another genocide.' surely you dont believe that...unless you believe the earth is flat and 4000-5000 years old...so why say it...

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 05:58 pm

Also, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/21/what-is-operation-fast-and-furious-11-questions-answers.html

reg June 22, 2012 at 06:47 pm

Connie (et al on this thread), I think you're defeating your argument by showing you're not fully informed of this circumstance. No one in this current administration - not Holder, not Obama - new about this gun trafficking. It was not at all included in F&F, in fact. It was a couple of goons with ATF that did it, extending what had been done in a previous project in 2006, and without any authorization. Many documents collected and filed that pertain to its unauthorized conduction later on can contain names of undercover agents, of folks in those trafficking cartels that cooperate with and provide information to ATF, of other information gathered in investigation of drug runners, and so on. If that info was released, it would endanger the lives of those people, and ruin the fight against the project to, by tipping off the other side of what we have so far. Rep. issa knows that, too - he knows it can't be released; he's only milking it out on a PR frenzy that he thinks will help him and the GOP in this year's elections.

JoSCh June 22, 2012 at 07:11 pm

Connie, did you object to the 6 times president Bush invoked executive privilege? How about when the same type of operation was run during his administration, letting guns walk across the border? I'm just curious if you actually have an ethical objection or if you're just a partisan. I'm guessing the latter.
Also the definition you wrote for privilege, where the rich have more advantages is NOT related to doctor/patient or lawyer/client privilege. Was that an attempt at a joke?

stanley seigler June 22, 2012 at 07:22 pm

@wade: " These men are not only corrupt, but cowardly murderers as well."
well not to worry issa's investigation will bring this out and the cowards will be strung up... re this crap: why does 'when yo in a hole stop digging' come to mind.

Dr. John June 23, 2012 at 02:55 am

Reg,
Please refer to page 16 of the stimulus bill under the justice department section titled "project gun runner" http://readthestimulus.org/hr1_final.pdf

JoSCh June 24, 2012 at 11:42 pm

Walker != runner? Fast and Furious (gunwalker) was a single operation of Gunrunner, the project that got the stimulus money. Are you objecting to the ATF getting any stimulus money? Actually I don't know why I would ask, you're objecting to a project started in 2006. This isn't a question of ethics or policy with you, you don't like the president and you're too bigoted to consider anything other than what the right wing media tells you. I have to imagine you KNEW that gunrunner wasn't gunwalker, but the distinction between them didn't matter as long as you were slamming the president. Way to go.